-- Oct 22, 1896; Thursday
The Presidency and Apostles met at the Temple at 11 A.M. Present: Presidents W[ilford]. Woodruff, G[eorge]. Q. Cannon, J[oseph]. F. Smith and L[orenzo]. Snow; Elders F[ranklin]. D. Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.], F[rancis]. M. Lyman, G[eorge]. Teasdale and H[eber]. J. Grant. President L[orenzo]. Snow informed the Council that a letter from Brother Moses Thatcher was handed to him last Monday by Moses Thatcher, Jun[ior]., three days after the date of which it was written. The following is the letter:
No. 101 West, North Temple St.,
Salt Lake City, Oct[ober]. 16, 1896.
Elder Lorenzo Snow, President of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: --
Having in mind the utterances of my file leaders and others at the late Semi-annual conference respecting myself and the attitude in which I was placed towards the Church of Christ, and those in authority over me in the Holy Priesthood; and desiring to be, if possible, in harmony with the quorum over which you preside and with the First Presidency of the Church, I indeavored to meet with you and the brethren at their weekly gathering on Thursday, the 15th, but on appearing at the door of the Temple was denied admittance.
Later in the day I was furnished by the Secretary, George F. Gibbs, with a copy of the general "Notice" to the Latter Day Saints as published in the Deseret News of October 15th. This was the first notification received of the intended suspension of the functions of the Priesthood held by me. I was aware that my name had not been presented and sustained by the vote of the Saints assembled in Conference on April and October last, but no intimation had been given that such action deprived me of my priesthood or in any suspended its functions. Had I received an authoritative information that such was the intention or was in any sense thought to be desirable I would have, if possible, avoided occasion for complaint on that point. Now since I am denied the privilege of meeting your quorum for the purpose of explaining everything I humbly and respectfully ask you to furnish me in writing, conveying in specific detail the items of all charges of wrong-doing which my brethren may think proper or feel constrained to bring against me as objections to my longer continuance as an Apostle and fellow laborer with them in the cause and Church of the master, our Savior, to whom I also have dedicated all I have or may hereafter be. Until the remarks of the brethren delivered at the last General Conference, as they appeared published in the daily press of this city, apprised me of it, I did not know that the had held ought against or premeditated the planting of charges against me on any matter whatever other than that of my failure to endorse the "Declaration" issued last April, relating to political affairs past and present and future; and possibly complaining also respecting my political methods, words and works since the division of the people in Utah on national party lines. I had understood that my failure to see eye to eye with my brethren on those civil matters, and for not, on short notice, endorsing the declaration, causing the withholding of my name from the list of Apostles as presented to the Saints at the April Conference. The sacred and I believe holy bond of fellowship openly confessed and candidly proclaimed many times each to the other, during all the years of your Presidency over the twelve Apostles, and the sacred places and loving manner in which that bond of fellowship was, as I thought, cemented together, at least for all past and present times, if not for eternity, banished from my heart distress of every kind and naturally precluded apprehension, fear and thought of such darkness and ambition as that publicly proclaimed as having been the condition in which I had continued for a number of years. Under the newly revealed conditions, as stated at Conference, it may be seen how naturally and easily harmony might fail of its fullest fruition of confidence, hope and trustful love; for how could those in the light unite with one in the dark? Or how could one in the dark go to the light when not informed respecting his darkness. During all the years of later membership in the Church I have not been ignorant of the divine admonition that Lucifer would if possible deceive even the very elect of God; and I have also
endeavored to keep ever before my eyes, that other admonition: "Let him who thinks he standeth take heed lest he falleth". From that I thought I had learned how helpless I would be without the merciful aid of my brethren and the compassionate and loving kindness of the Holy One, while passing an existence filled with temptations and danger which ever seems to beset those attempting to walk in that straight and narrow way which so few find. It appears useless at this point, and is a waste to even allude to the love and labor of the past of valuable time, for those whose confidence and esteem I have tried hard to merit may be well trusted to remember that all that is necessary. For the light and for truth, and for justice as defined in the laws of God I have sacrificed some things and may be willing, when necessary, to sacrifice all things. While greatly improved in health I am not yet in a physical condition to endure a prolonged or severe strain of body or mind, and therefore trust that I shall be given a sufficient time in which to answer all charges which may be brought against me. As to anything I have said or done contrary to the commandments of God I hold myself bound under this law to answer or plead guilty whenever the charges are made specific and have sufficient time so that the exertion shall not again force me towards the grave, on the verge of which, as you know, I have so long lingered. My desire is to do right and to be united with my brethren and those who preside over me in all that will promote the glory of God and the salvation of men; for as I comprehend the lessons of history he who cannot be governed is utterly unfit to attempt government even in the family relation. Praying the Lord God of Israel to bless you, and expressing heartfelt gratitude to you for the considerate, humble and loving manner in which you have presided over your brethren of the Apostles, and trusting that you are not unwilling that I should still subscribe myself as your "Brother in the Gospel", I remain, as heretofore, devoted to the cause of righteousness, the cause of God.
Moses Thatcher.
Pres[iden]t. L. Snow expressed the opinion that the letter was written for publication, providing Brother Thatcher failed to obtain the fellowship of his brethren. Still Brother Snow felt that Brother Thatcher's bodily condition should be favorably considered, and that if he manifested the spirit of repentance to the satisfaction of his brethren, his case might be easily settled. He referred to the labors of Apostles with Brother Thatcher the night before the dedication of the Temple, who worked with him till about 2 o'clock in the morning. Brother Snow expressed astonishment that a man claiming to be an Apostle, giving as a reason why he should be admitted to the Temple, that he had paid about $3,000 towards its erection. On that kind of reasoning Mr. A[lfred]. W. McCune, who though a non-member, had paid $5000 towards its completion, might consistently ask that the doors of the Temple be opened to him. Brother Snow could not see how the Apostles could fellowship Brother Thatcher except through his humility and repentance, and that Brother Thatcher should be
required to meet with his quorum as soon as his physical condition would warrant, and also that he make personal satisfaction with Presidents Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon and Jos[eph]. F. Smith.
President Cannon said he would not require any man to ask his forgiveness, whatever Brother Thatcher might feel desirous of doing, would be a matter personal with him. Pres[iden]t. Cannon said he had prayed fervently to the Lord that Brother Thatcher's anger might be turned from him; he believed the Lord had heard his prayer. He had no ill feelings towards Brother Thatcher, but felt sure that if Brother Thatcher had claimed the fellowship of his quorum, he also could extend the hand of fellowship to him. He did not wish that his name should be connected with the matter of Brother Thatcher's standing as an Apostle, but if Brother Thatcher felt to come with honesty in his heart to make things right he would appreciate it. The attack made upon him when in prison was very bitter, and articles had appeared since in the Logan Journal, the editor of which acted as champion to Brother Thatcher, and if it was not true that Brother Thatcher was personally interested in that paper, still if he had not believed the things stated in its columns, he ought to have made that known, and he felt that it was due to his fellow Apostles that Brother Thatcher should correct what had been said concerning himself. The only specific charge however against Brother Thatcher as he views it, would be that he had not the spirit of his Apostleship.
President Woodruff said the spirit manifested by Brother Thatcher towards Brother Cannon immediately after the death of President [John]Taylor, was the spirit of an enemy, and he doubted very much that Brother Thatcher had ever succeeded in ridding himself of it.
President J[oseph]. F. Smith thought there was nothing in the letter read that spoke of genuine humility or showed that Brother Thatcher senses his true position. Brother Thatcher would have to understand that he is absolutely suspended, and that nothing but the spirit of true repentance and genuine humility could restore him. If he could get that spirit sufficiently to approach President Snow and his fellow Apostles to learn what he should do, he, President Smith, felt he could join with his brethren to help him, otherwise he could not.
Elder F[rancis]. M. Lyman thought that when Brother Thatcher got the spirit of the Apostleship, he would know himself that he had not been on the right track; that he had set himself up to be a law unto himself; that he had not been one with his brethren and the Presidency, and that his course has tended to bring the authorities of the Church into disrepute. Brother Lyman believed that Brother Thatcher's sickness was partly due to his disregard to the Word of Wisdom, and the record of his scant attendance at the meetings of this council showed that he had lost the spirit of his Apostleship.
President Woodruff said he couldn't see the least particle of light under heaven which encouraged him to believe that Brother Thatcher could ever again be united with this council, nor did he believe that the desire in him was to do so.
Elder B[righam]. Young expressed his feelings to the effect that nothing Brother Thatcher could do would avail with the
brethren of the Council unless through repentance and humility. He must manifest a broken heart and contrite spirit before he could take him by the hand and welcome him as an Apostle.
Elder G[eorge]. Teasdale referred to the advice given to Brother Thatcher by Pres[iden]t. Snow on a former occasion to go to the First Presidency and make everything right with them. This he had not done, but he had associated with men who were filled with the spirit of evil, and the speaker believed that Brother Thatcher would apostatize if he did not thoroughly repent and obtain the forgiveness of the Lord and his brethren.
President Woodruff here remarked that Brother Thatcher would not have to move very far from where he now is in order to apostatize. He did not wish to prophecy evil concerning any man, but his feelings were that the members of this council would all be in the spirit world before they saw Brother Moses united with them. He would be glad of course to have Brother Moses regain his fellowship, but he had seen so much in his experience of the kind of spirit that Brother Moses is possessed of, that he was almost without hope of a change, as he knew the danger of it.
Elder H[eber]. J. Grant felt that Brother Thatcher should be brought to task for what he had done in helping to break up the solemn agreement and covenant entered into by President John Taylor and others, resulting in what was known as the "dedicated stock" of the Bullion-Beck Company; that Brother Moses should have helped to preserve that stock to the Church, instead of demanding that which he claimed as his own, thereby setting an example for others to do likewise, resulting in loss to the Church of perhaps one million dollars.
Elder F[ranklin]. D. Richards who spoke previously to Brother Grant, suggested that a copy of the Deseret News containing the full report of the remarks of the brethren made at the General Conference, concerning Brother Thatcher, be sent to him, with an answer to his communication. Brother Richards thought that when an appointment should be made to meet with Brother Thatcher it would be better for the quorum to meet in the Annex of the Temple.
It was decided that the following letter should be sent, and that any appointment of the quorum with Brother Thatcher should be made at his own request:
Salt Lake City, Oct[ober]. 23, 1896.
Elder Moses Thatcher, City.
Dear Brother: --
Your communication of the 16th inst., was received by me on the 19th, and its contents carefully noted. Since the writing of your letter the full stenographic report of the remarks of the brethren made at our late general conference has been published in the Deseret News, in which their feelings concerning you are quite freely expressed; and you not having read these published remarks prior to the writing of your communication, I take it for granted that it will not be necessary for me to explain or answer further. With kindest regards, Your Brother,
Lorenzo Snow.
By request of Pres[iden]t. Jos[eph]. F. Smith, Bro[ther]. Nephi L. Morris was added to the list of Aids to the General
Sup[erintenden]t. Y.M.M.I.A.
Before the Council separated, President Woodruff exhorted the brethren not to slacken their endeavors both in faith and works in behalf of Brother Moses Thatcher, for notwithstanding what he had expressed of his personal feelings as to the prospects, he hoped the Apostles would do all they could consistently to help Brother Thatcher. (1)
-- Oct 22, 1896
The Presidency and Apostles met at the Temple at 11 A.M. Present: Presidents W[ilford]. Woodruff, G[eorge]. Q. Cannon, J[oseph]. F. Smith and L[orenzo]. Snow; Elders F[ranklin]. D. Richards, B[righam]. Young [Jr.], F[rancis]. M. Lyman, G[eorge]. Teasdale and H[eber]. J. Grant. President L[orenzo]. Snow informed the Council that a letter from Brother Moses Thatcher was handed to him last Monday by Moses Thatcher, Jun[ior]., three days after the date of which it was written. The following is the letter:
No. 101 West, North Temple St.,
Salt Lake City, Oct[ober]. 16, 1896. Elder Lorenzo Snow, President of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints: —
Having in mind the utterances of my file leaders and others at the late Semi-annual conference respecting myself and the attitude in which I was placed towards the Church of Christ, and those in authority over me in the Holy Priesthood; and desiring to be, if possible, in harmony with the quorum over which you preside and with the First Presidency of the Church, I indeavored to meet with you and the brethren at their weekly gathering on Thursday, the 15th, but on appearing at the door of the Temple was denied admittance. Later in the day I was furnished by the Secretary, George F. Gibbs, with a copy of the general "Notice" to the Latter Day Saints as published in the Deseret News of October 15th. This was the first notification received of the intended suspension of the functions of the Priesthood held by me. I was aware that my name had not been presented and sustained by the vote of the Saints assembled in Conference on April and October last, but no intimation had been given that such action deprived me of my priesthood or in any suspended its functions. Had I received an authoritative information that such was the intention or was in any sense thought to be desirable I would have, if possible, avoided occasion for complaint on that point. Now since I am denied the privilege of meeting your quorum for the purpose of explaining everything I humbly and respectfully ask you to furnish me in writing, conveying in specific detail the items of all charges of wrong-doing which my brethren may think proper or feel constrained to bring against me as objections to my longer continuance as an Apostle and fellow laborer with them in the cause and Church of the master, our Savior, to whom I also have dedicated all I have or may hereafter be. Until the remarks of the brethren delivered at the last General Conference, as they appeared published in the daily press of this city, apprised me of it, I did not know that the had held ought against or premeditated the planting of charges against me on any matter whatever other than that of my failure to endorse the "Declaration" issued last April, relating to political affairs past and present and future; and possibly complaining also respecting my political methods, words and works since the division of the people in Utah on national party lines. I had understood that my failure to see eye to eye with my brethren on those civil matters, and for not, on short notice, endorsing the declaration, causing the withholding of my name from the list of Apostles as presented to the Saints at the April Conference. The sacred and I believe holy bond of fellowship openly confessed and candidly proclaimed many times each to the other, during all the years of your Presidency over the twelve Apostles, and the sacred places and loving manner in which that bond of fellowship was, as I thought, cemented together, at least for all past and present times, if not for eternity, banished from my heart distress of every kind and naturally precluded apprehension, fear and thought of such darkness and ambition as that publicly proclaimed as having been the condition in which I had continued for a number of years. Under the newly revealed conditions, as stated at Conference, it may be seen how naturally and easily harmony might fail of its fullest fruition of confidence, hope and trustful love; for how could those in the light unite with one in the dark? Or how could one in the
dark go to the light when not informed respecting his darkness. During all the years of later
membership in the Church I have not been ignorant of the divine admonition that Lucifer
would if possible deceive even the very elect of God; and I have also endeavored to keep
ever before my eyes, that other admonition: "Let him who thinks he standeth take heed lest
he falleth". From that I thought I had learned how helpless I would be without the merciful
aid of my brethren and the compassionate and loving kindness of the Holy One, while
passing an existence filled with temptations and danger which ever seems to beset those
attempting to walk in that straight and narrow way which so few find. It appears useless at
this point, and is a waste to even allude to the love and labor of the past of valuable time, for
those whose confidence and esteem I have tried hard to merit may be well trusted to
remember that all that is necessary. For the light and for truth, and for justice as defined in
the laws of God I have sacrificed some things and may be willing, when necessary, to
sacrifice all things. While greatly improved in health I am not yet in a physical condition to
endure a prolonged or severe strain of body or mind, and therefore trust that I shall be given a
sufficient time in which to answer all charges which may be brought against me. As to
anything I have said or done contrary to the commandments of God I hold myself bound
under this law to answer or plead guilty whenever the charges are made specific and have
sufficient time so that the exertion shall not again force me towards the grave, on the verge of
which, as you know, I have so long lingered. My desire is to do right and to be united with
my brethren and those who preside over me in all that will promote the glory of God and the
salvation of men; for as I comprehend the lessons of history he who cannot be governed is
utterly unfit to attempt government even in the family relation. Praying the Lord God of
Israel to bless you, and expressing heartfelt gratitude to you for the considerate, humble and
loving manner in which you have presided over your brethren of the Apostles, and trusting
that you are not unwilling that I should still subscribe myself as your "Brother in the Gospel",
I remain, as heretofore, devoted to the cause of righteousness, the cause of God.
Moses Thatcher.
Pres[iden]t. L. Snow expressed the opinion that the letter was written for publication, providing Brother Thatcher failed to obtain the fellowship of his brethren. Still Brother Snow felt that Brother Thatcher's bodily condition should be favorably considered, and that if he manifested the spirit of repentance to the satisfaction of his brethren, his case might be easily settled. He referred to the labors of Apostles with Brother Thatcher the night before the dedication of the Temple, who worked with him till about 2 o'clock in the morning. Brother Snow expressed astonishment that a man claiming to be an Apostle, giving as a reason why he should be admitted to the Temple, that he had paid about $3,000 towards its erection. On that kind of reasoning Mr. A[lfred]. W. McCune, who though a non-member, had paid $5000 towards its completion, might consistently ask that the doors of the Temple be opened to him. Brother Snow could not see how the Apostles could fellowship Brother Thatcher except through his humility and repentance, and that Brother Thatcher should be required to meet with his quorum as soon as his physical condition would warrant, and also that he make personal satisfaction with Presidents Geo[rge]. Q. Cannon and Jos[eph]. F. Smith.
President Cannon said he would not require any man to ask his forgiveness, whatever Brother Thatcher might feel desirous of doing, would be a matter personal with him. Pres[iden]t. Cannon said he had prayed fervently to the Lord that Brother Thatcher's anger might be turned from him; he believed the Lord had heard his prayer. He had no ill feelings towards Brother Thatcher, but felt sure that if Brother Thatcher had claimed the fellowship of his quorum, he also could extend the hand of fellowship to him. He did not wish that his name should be connected with the matter of Brother Thatcher's standing as an Apostle, but if Brother Thatcher felt to come with honesty in his heart to make things right he would appreciate it. The attack made upon him when in prison was very bitter, and articles had appeared since in the Logan Journal, the editor of which acted as champion to Brother Thatcher, and if it was not true that Brother Thatcher was personally interested in that paper, still if he had not believed the things stated in its columns, he ought to have made that known, and he felt that it was due to his fellow Apostles that Brother Thatcher should correct what had been said concerning himself. The only specific charge however against Brother Thatcher as he views it, would be that he had not the spirit of his Apostleship.
President Woodruff said the spirit manifested by Brother Thatcher towards Brother Cannon immediately after the death of President [John] Taylor, was the spirit of an enemy, and he doubted very much that Brother Thatcher had ever succeeded in ridding himself of it.
President J[oseph]. F. Smith thought there was nothing in the letter read that spoke of genuine humility or showed that Brother Thatcher senses his true position. Brother Thatcher would have to understand that he is absolutely suspended, and that nothing but the spirit of true repentance and genuine humility could restore him. If he could get that spirit sufficiently to approach President Snow and his fellow Apostles to learn what he should do, he, President Smith, felt he could join with his brethren to help him, otherwise he could not.
Elder F[rancis]. M. Lyman thought that when Brother Thatcher got the spirit of the Apostleship, he would know himself that he had not been on the right track; that he had set himself up to be a law unto himself; that he had not been one with his brethren and the Presidency, and that his course has tended to bring the authorities of the Church into disrepute. Brother Lyman believed that Brother Thatcher's sickness was partly due to his disregard to the Word of Wisdom, and the record of his scant attendance at the meetings of this council showed that he had lost the spirit of his Apostleship.
President Woodruff said he couldn't see the least particle of light under heaven which encouraged him to believe that Brother Thatcher could ever again be united with this council, nor did he believe that the desire in him was to do so.
Elder B[righam]. Young expressed his feelings to the effect that nothing Brother Thatcher could do would avail with the brethren of the Council unless through repentance and humility. He must manifest a broken heart and contrite spirit before he could take him by the hand and welcome him as an Apostle.
Elder G[eorge]. Teasdale referred to the advice given to Brother Thatcher by Pres[iden]t. Snow on a former occasion to go to the First Presidency and make everything right with them. This he had not done, but he had associated with men who were filled with the spirit of evil, and the speaker believed that Brother Thatcher would apostatize if he did not thoroughly repent and obtain the forgiveness of the Lord and his brethren.
President Woodruff here remarked that Brother Thatcher would not have to move very far from where he now is in order to apostatize. He did not wish to prophecy evil concerning any man, but his feelings were that the members of this council would all be in the spirit world before they saw Brother Moses united with them. He would be glad of course to have Brother Moses regain his fellowship, but he had seen so much in his experience of the kind of spirit that Brother Moses is possessed of, that he was almost without hope of a change, as he knew the danger of it.
Elder H[eber]. J. Grant felt that Brother Thatcher should be brought to task for what he had done in helping to break up the solemn agreement and covenant entered into by President John Taylor and others, resulting in what was known as the "dedicated stock" of the Bullion-Beck Company; that Brother Moses should have helped to preserve that stock to the Church, instead of demanding that which he claimed as his own, thereby setting an example for others to do likewise, resulting in loss to the Church of perhaps one million dollars.
Elder F[ranklin]. D. Richards who spoke previously to Brother Grant, suggested that a copy of the Deseret News containing the full report of the remarks of the brethren made at the General Conference, concerning Brother Thatcher, be sent to him, with an answer to his communication. Brother Richards thought that when an appointment should be made to meet with Brother Thatcher it would be better for the quorum to meet in the Annex of the Temple.
It was decided that the following letter should be sent, and that any appointment of the quorum with Brother Thatcher should be made at his own request:
Salt Lake City, Oct[ober]. 23, 1896.
Elder Moses Thatcher, City.
Dear Brother: —
Your communication of the 16th inst., was received by me on the 19th, and its
contents carefully noted. Since the writing of your letter the full stenographic report of the
remarks of the brethren made at our late general conference has been published in the Deseret
News, in which their feelings concerning you are quite freely expressed; and you not having
read these published remarks prior to the writing of your communication, I take it for granted
that it will not be necessary for me to explain or answer further. With kindest regards, Your
Brother,
Lorenzo Snow.
By request of Pres[iden]t. Jos[eph]. F. Smith, Bro[ther]. Nephi L. Morris was added to the list of Aids to the General Sup[erintenden]t. Y[oung]. Men's]. M[utual]. I[mprovement]. A[ssociation].
Before the Council separated, President Woodruff exhorted the brethren not to slacken their endeavors both in faith and works in behalf of Brother Moses Thatcher, for notwithstanding what he had expressed of his personal feelings as to the prospects, he hoped the Apostles would do all they could consistently to help Brother Thatcher.
Met council in Temple. Pres[iden]t Snow rec[eive]d letter from Moses Thatcher. not humble asks specific charges sent him remarks of Pres[iden]t and 12 on his case made during Conference; his letter was dated prior to those remarks being published. 16th I think. (2)
Endnotes:
1 - First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve minutes
2 - Journal History; Brigham Young Jr., Diary
LDS History Chronology: Lorenzo Snow
Mormon History Timeline: the life of Lorenzo Snow
http://lds-church-history.blogspot.com/
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